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Thursday, May 25, 2006

Excerpts of Libby Grand Jury Testimony [Doc 110-2]

An OCR Job. Some snippage of cover pages, errors in formatting, etc. due to manual layout and miscellaneous cleanup.


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 1 of 20

EXHIBIT A


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 2 of 20


              UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
              FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

IN RE: JOHN DOE

                                     Grand Jury No. 03-3

                                     Friday, March 5, 2004



11               The testimony of I. LEWIS LIBBY was taken in the

12 the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury, commencing at

13 1O:4O a.m., before:

14

15               RON ROOS
                 Deputy Special Counsel
16               United States Department of Justice 

17               PETER ZEIDENBERG
                 Deputy Special Counsel
18               United States Department of Justice

19               KATHLEEN M. KEDIAN
                 Deputy Special Counsel
20               United States Department of Justice

21               PATRICK FITZGERALD
                 Special Counsel
22               U.S. Attorney's Office, Chicago

23 

24

25

                  FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.
                  Court Reporting Depositions
                  D.C Area (301) 261-1902
                  Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 3 of 20

                                                        81
 1
 2
 3
 4                         REDACTED
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9      Q. And was it a discussion of -- that was -- was it a
10 topic that was discussed on a daily basis?
11      A. Yes, sir.
12      Q. And it was discussed on multiple occasions each day
13 in fact?
l4      A. Yes, sir.
15      Q. And during that time did the Vice-President indicate
16 that he was upset that this article was out there which
17 falsely in his view attacked his own credibility?
18      A. Yes, sir.
19      Q. And do you recall what it is that the Vice-President
20 said?
21      A. I recall that he was very keen to get the truth out.
22 He wanted to get all the facts out about what he had or hadn't
23 done, what the facts were or were not.  He was very keen on
24 that and said it repeatedly.  Let's get everything out.  He
25 wanted to get it all that.  That, that I recall.


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 4 of 20


                                                        82

 1      Q. Do you recall if you ever discussed a copy of the
 2 article with Vice-President Cheney -- in front of you what you
 3 talked about?
 4      A. Physical copy in front of him? I don't recall that.
 5 He often cuts out an article and keeps it on his desk
 6 somewhere and thinks about it and I subsequently learned that
 7 he had such an article from the FBI agents who talked to me.
 8      Q. And had you seen that copy of the article before the
 9 FBI showed it to you during the course of the investigation?
10      A. I, I don't recall it. It's possible if it was
l1 sitting on his desk that, you know, my eye went across it.  I
12 don't, I don't recall him pulling it out and saying something
13 to him, but we talked about the article a fair amount.
14      MR. FITZGERALD. And let me show you a copy of the
15 article with handwritten notes on it.
16      MS. KEDIAN.  Grand Jury Exhibit 8.
17      By MR. FITZGERALD:
18      Q. And in looking at Grand Jury 8, can you tell us if
19 you recognize the handwriting at the top, top of both pages?
20      A. Yes, sir. It looks like the Vice-President's
21 handwriting.
22      Q. Okay. And I take it you're familiar with his
23 handwriting?
24      A. I am. I couldn't necessarily pick it out from
25 similar handwriting, but this looks like his handwriting


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 5 of 20


                                                          83
 1 generally.
 2 
 3      Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that there's various
 4 items underlined in this copy?
 5      A. Yes, sir.
 6      Q. Does that include the sentence, I have little choice
 7 but to assume that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's
 8 nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi
 9 threat?
10      A. Yes, sir.
1l      Q. And does it also include handwriting at the top of
12 the page that says, that reads, have they done this sort of
13. thing before?
14      A. I'm sorry, are you asking me if that appears at the
15 top of the page.
16      Q. Yes.
17      A. Yes, sir, it does.
18      Q. And does it say beneath that, send our -- send an
19 ambassador to answer a question?
20      A. Yes, sir.
21      Q. And does it say below that, do ordinary send people
22 out pro bono to work for us?
23      A. It does, sir.
24      Q. And does the top of the page have a note that
25 continues over to the second page, or did his wife send him on


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 6 of 20


                                                          84

 1 a junket?
 2      A. Yes, sir.
 3      Q. And do you recall ever discussing those issues with
 4 Vice-President Cheney?
 5      A. Yes, sir.
 6      Q. And tell us what you recall about those
 7 conversations.
 8      A. I recall that along the way he asked, is this normal
 9 for them to just send somebody out like this uncompensated,.. as
10 it says.  He was interested in how did those person come to be
11 selected for this mission.  And at some point after we were in
12 his -- wife worked at the Agency, you know, that was part of
13 the question.
14      Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that he had told you
15 back in June, June 12th or before, prior to the Pincus
16 article, that his wife worked in the functional office of the
17 Counterproliferation of the CIA.  Correct?
18      A. Yes, sir.
19      Q. So when you say, that after we learned that his wife
20 worked at the Agency, that became a question.  Isn't it fair
21 to say that you already knew it from June 12th or earlier?
22      A. I believe by, by this week I no longer remembered
23 that. I had forgotten it. And I believe that because when it
24 was told to me on July 10, a few days after this article, it
25 seemed to me as if I was learning it for the first time.  When


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 7 of 20


                                                          85

 1 I knew it when I heard.
 2      Q. Okay. So let me back up a moment.  We'll get to the
 3 July 10 conversation.
 4      A. Yes, sir.
 5      Q. Do you recall when the Vice-President told you that
 6 we ordinarily sent -- or did the send him a junket when you
 7 had that conversation? Do you know when that was in relation
 8 to the July 6 article?
 9      A. I don't recall the conversation until after the
10 Novak piece.  I don't recall it during this week of July 6.  I
11 recall it after the Novak conver -- after the Novak article
12 appeared I recall it, and I recall being asked by the Vice-
13 President early on, you know, about this envoy, you know, who
14 is it and -- but I don't recall that early on he asked about
15 it in connection with the wife, although he may well have
16 given the note that I took.
17      Q. And so your recollection is that he wrote on July --
18 that you discussed with the vice-President, did his wife send
19 him on a junket? As a response to the July 14th Novak column
20 that said, he was sent because his wife sent him and she works
21 at the CIA?
22      A. I don't recall discussing it -- yes, I don't recall
23 discussing it in connection when this article first appeared.
24 I recall it later.
25      Q. And are you telling us under oath that from July 6th


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 8 of 20


                                                          86

 1 to July l4th you never discussed with Vice-President Cheney
 2 whether Mr. Wilson's wife worked at the CIA?
 3      A. No, no, I'm not saying that. On July 10 or 11 I
 4 learned, I thought anew, that the wife -- that reporters were
 5 telling us that the wife worked at the CIA.  And I may have
 6 had a conversation then with the Vice-President either late on
 7 the 11th or on the 12th in which I relayed that reporters were
 8 saying that.  When I had that conversation I had forgotten
 9 about the earlier conversations in which he told me about --
10 reflected in my notes that we went over this morning, in early
11 June, before the Pincus article, when he had told me that the
12 wife worked at the CIA. I had just forgotten it.
13      Q. And you just affixed the, the person -- who did you
14 speak to on July 10th or 11th that you recalled learning
15 again, thinking it was for the first time, that Wilson's wife
16 worked at the CIA?
17      A. Tim Russert of NBC News, Washington Bureau Chief for
18 NBC News.
19
20
21
22                            REDACTED
23
24
25


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 9 of 20

EXHIBIT B


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 10 of 20



              UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
              FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

IN RE: JOHN DOE

                                     Grand Jury No. 03-3

                                     Wednesday, March 24, 2004



11               The testimony of I. LEWIS LIBBY was taken in the

12 the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury, commencing at

13 9:29 a.m., before:

14

15               RON ROOS
                 Deputy Special Counsel
16               United States Department of Justice 

17               PETER ZEIDENBERG
                 Deputy Special Counsel
18               United States Department of Justice

19               KATHLEEN M. KEDIAN
                 Deputy Special Counsel
20               United States Department of Justice

21               PATRICK FITZGERALD
                 Special Counsel
22               U.S. Attorney's Office, Chicago

23 

24

25

                  FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.
                  Court Reporting Depositions
                  D.C Area (301) 261-1902
                  Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 11 of 20


                                                         83

 1                       REDACTED
 2      Q. And did the Vice-President ever indicate his belief
 3 that Ambassador Wilson was selected to go on this mission
 4 because of his marital relationship with someone who worked at
 5 the CIA?
 6      A. He -- I think he, at times, had suspicions about,
 7 you know, is that why he was selected for this mission?
 8      Q. And what makes you say that?
 9      A. You know, I think he made comments about it in
10 connection with, well, his -- you know, his wife works there.
11 It wasn't a full sentence, I don't think, but that's the sort
12 of notion I took from it.
13      Q. An implication that if his wife hadn't worked there,
14 he wouldn't have been the one sent to do the job?
15      A. Something like that. Yes, sir.
16      Q. And where did the Vice-President say that?
17      A. Oh, these were in discussions, July, maybe -- late
18 July, maybe September, things like that.
19      Q. And what was the -- why was the Vice-President
20 discussing that in late July, early September?
21      A. People would come through and talk about different
22 issues and, you know, an issue might come up about the Wilson
23 controversy which was in the news.
24      Q. And why did the President -- Vice-President not
25 discuss this back in June, on or about June 9th, 10th, 11th,


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 12 of 20


                                                       84

 1 when you were preparing for the Pincus column and he noted
 2 that his wife works at the CIA? Did you take from that an
 3 observation that, oh, his wife works out there, he wouldn't
 4 have the job otherwise?
 5      A. No, sir. The only, the only time I recall
 6 discussing it just then was that discussion. That's all I
 7 recall
 8      Q. And when you --
 9      A. I'm sorry, when I say that discussion, I want to be
10 clear, the discussion that I took the note about.
11      Q. And from July 6th, when the Novak -- July 6, when
12 the Wilson piece appears, until July 12, when you were talking
13 to reporters after Air Force Two, do you recall any
14 conversation during that week where Vice-President Cheney
15 observed or had it brought to his attention that Wilson's wife
16 worked at the CIA?
17      A. I certainly don't recall any discussion about that
18 prior to the Russert/Novak conversations when I learned about
19 the wife, what I thought was the first time.  And I don't
20 recall, as I told you before, whether we discussed that on the
21 plane that day.
22      Q. And do you --
23      A. But I don't, I don't recall any such discussion
24
25                                REDACTED


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 13 of 20

EXHIBIT B


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 14 of 20




              UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
              FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

IN RE: JOHN DOE

                                     Grand Jury No. 03-3

                                     Wednesday, March 24, 2004



11               The testimony of I. LEWIS LIBBY was taken in the

12 the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury, commencing at

13 9:29 a.m., before:

14

15               RON ROOS
                 Deputy Special Counsel
16               United States Department of Justice 

17               PETER ZEIDENBERG
                 Deputy Special Counsel
18               United States Department of Justice

19               KATHLEEN M. KEDIAN
                 Deputy Special Counsel
20               United States Department of Justice

21               PATRICK FITZGERALD
                 Special Counsel
22               U.S. Attorney's Office, Chicago

23 

24

25

                  FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.
                  Court Reporting Depositions
                  D.C Area (301) 261-1902
                  Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 15 of 20



                                                             86
 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 6
 7                              REDACTED
 8
 9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17      Q. And why don't I show you the Copy of the July 6th
18 column with some handwriting on it. And I believe we showed
19 this document to you the last time, or at least discussed it,
20 and you indicated that you had not seen this copy of the
21 article with the handwriting until the FBI showed it to you?
22      A. That's my recollection, sir.
23      Q. And showing you what has been already marked as
24 Grand Jury Exhibit 8, is that the copy of the Wilson column
25 with the handwriting that you recall first being shown by the


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 16 of 20

                                                           87

 1 FBI?
 2      A. Yes, it is.
 3      Q. Okay.   And have you ever seen the Vice-President
 4 with a paper copy of the Wilson column? And by paper copy I
 5 mean one not printed off the internet, not printed off a
 6 computer, but the actual physical newspaper column?
 7      A. I don't recall.
 8      Q. Did you often see him with the actual newspaper
 9 column -- actual physical columns from newspapers?
10      A. Yes, he often will cut out from a newspaper an
11 article using a little pen knife that he has and put it on the
12 edge of his desk or put it in his desk and then pull it out
13 and look at it, think about it.  That will often happen.
14      Q. Okay. And do you recall if he did that on this
15 occasion on July 6th?
16      A. Evidently he did, but I don't recall.
17      Q. Okay.  And fair to say --
18      A. Once again, this, this column came out, I believe he
19 got this column when he was in Wyoming, not in Washington,
20 over the July 4 recess.  And so it's -- I don't think it would
21 have been there the day I walked in the office, for example.
22      Q. How long does the Vice-President keep the columns
23 that he cuts out with a pen knife and puts on the corner of
24 his desk?
25      A. Sometimes a long time.


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 17 of 20


                                                           88

 1      Q. And if you walk in the Vice-President's office,
 2 would you see a stack of old newspaper articles on the corner
 3 of his desk?
 4      A. He doesn't necessarily always keep it on the corner
 5 of his desk. He keeps it underneath papers or in a briefcase
 6 ore something. I've seen him produce them from different
 7 places. And since the FBI showed me this, I have, on occasion,
 8 noticed him still -- you know, having a document on his desk
 9 which is a cut out newspaper article.
10      Q. Just to paint a picture for people who haven't been
11 to the office of the Vice-President, if any of us would walk
12 into his office would we, would we see a stack of newspaper
13 clippings or are we talking about one or two columns that
14 might be on the desk if someone were to look?
15      A. Oh, one or two. I mean, you'd see stacks of paper
16 and you wouldn't know what was in the stack of paper. I --
17 I'd never seen bunches of them, but I have seen two or three.
18      Q. And the handwriting at the top, is it fair to say
19 that that appears to be the Vice-President's handwriting?
20      A. Yes, sir.  As I told you last time --
21      Q. Right.
22      A. -- I think that's right.
23      Q. And does one of the questions indicate at the top
24 here say, had they done this sort of thing before?
25      A. Yes, sir.


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 18 of 20


                                                         89


 1      Q. And do you recall the Vice-President ever asking you
 2 whether or not the CIA had ever done this sort of thing
 3 before?
 4      A. I think he did at one point.
 5      Q. And do you know when that would have been?
 6      A. No, sir.
 7      Q. And it says here, underneath that, says, send an
 8 ambassador to answer a question.  Did, did he ever express to
 9 you his disbelief that they would send an ambassador to  answer
10 a question?
11      A. I don't recall him asking that specific question.
12      Q. Knowing the Vice-President the way you do with daily
13 contact, would the question, send an ambassador to answer a
14 question, indicate some sort of belief on his part that it
15 seems sort of silly to send an ambassador overseas to answer a
16 question?
17      A. It certainly seems like he thought it was an issue,
18 yes.
19      Q. And the next question written is, do we ordinarily
20 send people out pro bono to work for us?  Do you recall the
21 Vice-President asking you a question to the effect of, do we,
22 the United States government, send people unpaid to go work
23 for us?
24      A. Yes, sir. I think he asked something like that.
25      Q. And do you recall when he asked about that?


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 19 of 20


                                                         90

 1      A. I, I don't.
 2      Q. And lastly, it says, or did his wife send him on a
 3 junket?  Do you recall the Vice-President indicating or asking
 4 you or anyone in your presence whether or not Ambassador
 5 Wilson's wife had arranged to have him sent on a junket?
 6      A. I think I recall him -- I don't recall him asking me
 7 that particular question, but I think I recall him musing
 8 about that.
 9      Q. Okay. And do you recall when it was that he mused
10 about that?
11      A. I think it was after the Wilson column.
12.     Q. Okay, and obviously --
13      A. I don't mean the Wilson column, I'm sorry I mis-
14 spoke.  I think it was after the Novak column.
15      Q. Okay. And you mentioned last time that you thought
16 he had written, handwritten here, may have been discussed at a
17 later date, like August or September by the Vice-President?
18      A. Yes, sir.
19      Q. And --
20      A. I don't know, later. I don't know when, but yes.
21      Q. Okay. And can you tell us why it would be that the
22 Vice-President read the Novak column and had questions some of
23 which apparently seem to be answered by the Novak column,
24 would go back and pull out an original July 6th op-ed piece
25 and write on that?


Case 1:05-cr-00394-RBW     Document 110     Filed 05/24/2006     Page 20 of 20


                                                         91

 1      A. I -- I'm not sure I --
 2      Q. Well, the Novak column --
 3      A. -- followed your he, he often kept these columns
 4 for awhile and keeps columns and will think on them.  And I
 5 think what may have happened here is he may have -- I don't
 6 know if he wrote, he wrote the points down.  He might have
 7 pulled out the column to think about the problem and written
 8 on it, but I don't know.  You'll have to ask him.
 9      Q. As you sit here today are you telling us that his
10 concerns about Ambassador Wilson, his concern that he's
11 working pro bono, his concerns that he's an ambassador being
12 sent to answer a single question, his concern that his wife
13 may have sent him on a junket, would not have occurred between
14 July 6th and July 12th when you were focusing on responding to
15 the Wilson column but instead would have occurred much later?
16      A. The only part about the wife, sir, I think might not
17 have occurred in that week.  The rest of it, I think, could
18 have occurred in that week because, you know, it's all there.
19 You say it's all in the column.  The part about the wife I
20 don't recall discussing with him.  It might have occurred to
21 him but I don't recall discussing it with him prior to
22 learning, again, about the wife.
23      Q. And when you say learning again, you mean your
24 conversation with Mr. Russert --
25      A. Yes.


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